15 January 2012

Q&A

Q: What are the key roles that can't be filled, both clergy and lay?
A: Leading services, filling roles in Leadership teams, taking on jobs that are currently vacant. Difficulty to get people from All Saints to come on the Leadership Team and to chair it.

Q: If there are less services, how does this mean that there is more ministry?
A: Currently the Vicar needs to be in three places at once on a Sunday morning and the Curate will be leaving us in the next year or so. So the clergy are spread too thinly. Less services with no overlap means that the Vicar can provide leadership to all the services and provide better ministry.

Q: Could the 9 o'clock formal service be Matins when the 11 o'clock informal service is Communion?

Q: The timescale is too quick. Can we phase things out and in more slowly?
A: The PCC started considering the problems back in July 2011. Phasing things in by, say, reducing the number of services at All Saints over time would not build a community. People would be expected to leave their new community and go back to All Saints on one or two occasions each month.

Q: We must not leave behind the people that are playing important roles at present
A: One-to-one discussions are continuing with these people and it has been made clear to them that they have an important role in any new set-up

Q:What will happen about the possible loss of First@Nine, which is an exciting event and brings in people from other churches and denominations
A: We are exploring the possibility of holding First@Nine at other times on a Sunday or during the week. The current timing requires people to leave their own communities and services once a month to join in First@Nine

Concerns

• If we cut out Matins and Evensong, some people will move to other churches that offer these traditional services
  The flip side of concerns is opportunities. We must not lose sight of the opportunities that these changes present
• Concerned that we are stopping all Anglican Sunday morning services at All Saints
• Matins has been a central service in the Church of England since the Book of Common Prayer came into existence in 1662. Dropping Matins will mean losing this ancient tradition.
• St Thomas' is a medieval building, with many difference styles. I love the new openness and the friendly and flexible layout, but I'm afraid that we may lose the glory of the chancel
• The status quo is not an option. Where are the 30, 40 and 50 year old folk in our congregations?
• Opportunity – to have different styles of services, both formal and informal
• We may lose some of our pastoral care if we merge several small services into fewer ones with more participants
• Opportunity – things could be much greater and more exciting if we come together
• There is duplication at present, we are not two churches, we are one parish. Lets act accordingly.
• We can't build a community if we are scattered
• Don't forget the heritage we have
• There are two schools in our Parish and a large Secondary school in the town. How many pupils and parents worship with us?
• We talk about outreach to the wider community, but if we are not careful this is just social work. The first commandment is to to love the Lord your God. This is why we worship together. The second commandment is to love your neighbour as yourself, which is outreach. But we can't do the second if we don't do the first

Brainstorm - Ideas

• We need more ministry to teenagers
• We need to spend more time in the community with teams working on baptism, marriage and the elderly
• We could organise a transport system with volunteers to get people to church on Sundays and to other events during the week, particularly in the evenings
• How can we lose our fear of each other?
• Before the new services come into action we should do more to mix things up up, so that people meet each other. This is not just individuals going to All Saints and visa versa, but running some All Saints-style services and St Thomas' at St Thomas' services at All Saints. People will then have to move en mass.
• Coming together over food and drink is a major way to build communities and is an essential part of worship in many parishes. Is 10 o'clock too late in the day for this?
• Perhaps we could have some evening services aimed at the youth with rock bands etc. The green space at All Saints could be a great venue for this
• More sharing between services

16 January 2012

Q&A

Q: Do the PCC and Vicar have any regrets in stopping regular Sunday morning services at All Saints?
A: Vicar: I regret if it seems unfeeling, but we have been very open. We started thinking about this in July 2011 and the changes won't be implemented before June 2012 at the earliest. I don't regret the process, but with hindsight I do regret that we didn't start holding these Open Forums earlier in the process. What we still need to hear in this process is what is precious to you in an All Saints service.

Q: Can we have one or two services each month at All Saints?
A: T5 have given much thought to this. There is a great variety in what sort of service people want at All Saints. Some want formal communions, some want informal services and some want the First@Nine style. So what should these two be? We are committing to one another in one community, so can you tear yourself away from that community for a service in a different church once or twice a month? It could be the worst of all worlds.

Q: We have something valuable in this Parish in the First@Nine service. How can we make this bigger and better with the new patterns of worship?
A: We are looking at this

Q: What do you mean by commitment? We are committed at All Saints.
A: We mean commitment to each other as one community in the whole Parish.

Q: Why is this happening? The October letter did not amplify.
A: We can barely provide cover for all the different roles in our six Sunday services. Once our Curate, Andy Smith. leaves in a year or so we shall no longer be able to carry on as we are. As we can't carry on as we are, we need to identify what is most valuable and precious to us in what we currently do, and make sure that those gems are carried with us into the future. Simplifying what we do and joining forces across our congregations will make this possible, bring new energy for our true mission

Q: What will happen to the cleaning and gardening etc. if the current helpers move to St Thomas' and start using their time and talents there?

Q: Many parishes have have more than one building and use them frequently. Also other Parishes have more than one service going on at the same time. Why can't both points be the case in this Parish?
A: These other Parishes typically have more than just the incumbent. They have associate clergy (fully trained) and Readers, all under the direction of the incumbent

Concerns

• We have been here before about 20 years ago, but in a far worse state. Since then we have increased the number of services and now have a flourishing congregation
• This is a live church, don't destroy it, help us
• My husband and I attended St Thomas' when he was alive. Since he passed away I have come down to All Saints where I found kindness and warmth. I don't want to lose this
• There is something special about All Saints
• We should go to as many Open Forums as we can. The location is immaterial, each one is meant for everyone irrespective of where they worship
• Two things have to come out of these Open Forums:
• The grief and anger have to come out and be shared with everyone
• Hopefully they will influence the final decision, whatever that may be
• We should all attend each other's services at All Saints and St Thomas'
• What can we add to make the whole Parish better?
• We still don't understand the reasons for the changes

Brainstorming

• We are one Parish, one people of God. Why does all that is good at All Saints just have to stay here? Let's take it to St Thomas' and help to grow things there. We should take risks and move forward
• I pray that the informal service can involve Family Time and All Saints people working together and that all will be welcome. We should pool our talents
• Let people worship at All Saints, it will add to the Parish
• If we mirror at All Saints what happens at St Thomas' we just end up with duplication
• We should involve the Methodists more as some of the All Saints folk may wish to worship with them
• We should still use All Saints for other forms of service, such as a Christian rock band on Sunday evenings for teenagers

22 January 2012

At this Open Forum Dr James Soper invited participants to provide questions and comments/concerns at the same time, so the format is a little different to the previous meetings above.

Questions and Comments/Concerns

Worship at STC:

• Is it possible to have the 9am later?
• Only reason for originally attending STC was matins and choral evensong, could these be included?
• Could the inclusion of these be a concession at STC?
• Request for robed servers.
• Choral tradition strong, important and valuable here.
• Modern church music is banal and inferior.
• Good quality modern music does exist e.g. 'In Christ Alone' sung today at the Churches Together service
• It is important for children to experience traditional music as they don't get it at school.
• Martin and the choir should lead music at the 11am, not a new paid worship leader, as the proposed arrangement diminishes their role.
• Peter has spoken to Martin about leading the 11am informal service and Martin does not want to do that.
• It is clear in the documents produced by T5 that quality of music and worship is fundamental to the plans. The hope is to maintain good traditional music and develop good modern, contemporary worship as well.
• Peter is in frequent, very good communication with Martin about all these matters. They have together discussed many options with suggestions to: have choral evensong once a month rather than once every 6 weeks as is the current pattern and possibly hold it mid afternoon rather than evening, and have choral matins on the fifth Sundays of the month.

Worship at ASC:

• First@9 is popular – leave it as it is, breakfast is good.
• People who attend other services in the morning are unable to attend First@9 and would like to.
• How about holding First@9 in the afternoon - 'Tea and teaching'?
• How are the Methodists feeling about all this?
• Peter is talking to the Methodists – as already noted in the Q&S sheet – they are interested, not worried and very open to welcome anyone to their worship.

Nave altar:

• Choir member feels isolated.
• Sad that sanctuary is shut down most Sundays – many want it back.
• Suggestion of a vote.
• Suggestion of a sign-up list at the back of church for 4 weeks.

Children, families, Family Time and informal worship:

• Children should be brought in at the end of the main service and show what they had done in their session that morning so everyone can clap – this aids integration.
• That format was done at STC for many years and did not attract the families.
• What is being done in Family Time is attracting families?
• Family Time is not just for children but also for adults. It is an important outreach to the unchurched who would not understand matins etc. They need a church which is more informal and friendly.

PCC:

• The PCC is the democratic process in which decisions are made in the Anglican church and members are voted in by the APCM.
• Items of 'Any Other Business' can be raised at the APCM, and should be submitted in writing before the meeting.

Other:

• Can discussions points from the Open Forums please be printed out and put at the back of the churches for those without a computer?
• Will the teams at ASC continue their work e.g. grass cutting?
• It is hoped these teams will carry on.

Ideas for the future

• Growing churches have family services with outreach to the unchurched, including modern music.
• We are called to be “fishers of men and not keepers of the aquarium”.
• Hold open days in STC.

>li>Have monthly Sunday lunches in the hall with the main aim to include new church members.

• The street pastor ministry is developing in Lymington, encouraged by the police, and could become particularly valuable with the arrival of Wetherspoons.
• Vistas Café – Jenny Stott and a team including those who have been organising these on occasional Saturdays are considering running a similar event in the hall on three mornings a week. This could be particularly valuable with the sad closure of The Ark.
• Could we have 'open house' with coffee and chat through the week in church? At the Vistas Café meeting it was agreed that the church is a house of prayer and that to have the noise of coffee regularly through the day would be disturbing.
• Outreach activities at Woodside Gardens among the footballers etc.
• Family Time has had events at Woodside among all the people there – this sort of thing is very good.
• Have people responsible for streets around Lymington.
• Songs of praise at the Community Centre.
• Look to the outside.
• Have a parish weekend away with social activities, worship and discussion together.
• It is the experience of the flower arrangers that whenever they are in church there are always people dropping in keen to talk.
• Just being there is an outreach.
• Have stewards in church regularly to talk to visitors.
• High quality worship is evangelism in itself.

24 January 2012 (12 noon)

Worship:

• Q - Can the 8am communion really finish by 8.30 and all out by 8.45? Try the new format now to see if it is possible. If not, move 9 to 9.10am?
• A - 8am should be OK. Sympathetic to situation. Communion is central alongside vital outreach. Family Time is wonderful for that and we need to maintain a broad provision.
• Q - A plea for occasional matins please.
• Q - What provision is there planned for the people who feel pushed out?<?li>
  • A - Peter and Martin have been in discussion on planning and an idea is to trial choral matins and possibly have this occasionally as the formal service in STC. Also looking at the possibility of a main 11am midweek communion with the same teaching as the previous Sunday and with refreshments.
• There was a problem with the loop system on Sunday.
• The new 11 informal service is very exciting – the combination of Family Time and ASC informal and youth work will be wonderful.
• Wish you well with all this – we have been so fortunate to have so many services for so long.
• A Plea to maintain strong choral content.
• Q - How about making the formal service at 9.15am?
• A - At ASC there is currently a 45 minute gap before the Methodists' service and it is always a panic to get out. Also with large numbers at communion the service may over-run a little.
• A - There will be a lot of setting up involved in the informal service, band, screens etc. and the team would need as much time as possible. It will work!
• Communion can be formal and informal – different approaches to the Eucharist.
• First@9 draws in people from other churches. It would be good to move it to another day that does not take people away from other Sunday morning worship.

General:

• Support for all the decisions.
• Compliment on the Open Forum procedure.
• The process of PCC and T5 has felt a little defensive, so suggest more discussion in the future to make decisions more obvious to people.
• The general trend is in the right direction.
• Q - There seem to have not been replies to some letters?
• A - Peter has spent many, many hours replying to letters and visiting people in response to any letter sent to him.
• We need to be bolder and more positive.
• We need ideas for the future use of the ASC building.- more ambitious, more lay led, develop ecumenical services, go wider?
• A - The monthly Churches Together prayer and praise service is not well attended, could we revitalise that?
• Do these ideas of more mid-week services actually go against one of the aims of all this as they makes more work for Peter?

Ideas for the future:

• When there is a visiting mission speaker, how about combining the 9 and 11?
• Suggest continuing with routine Open Forums in the future as a way to encourage discussion and openness. These could focus on specific issues as they arise.
• Could these be opened up to the wider community occasionally?
• It is good also to have internet discussion and comment.
• Develop our deanery mission in Rwanda – have a direct link with a church community out there?
• Q - Can we advertise these jobs which need doing?
• A - PCC and T5 will be compiling a list of all the jobs across our church life, with a short description of each. This is an opportunity for people to continue their ministries, or to change. The PCC decided to defer this to an extra PCC meeting which is to be held at the end of this current group of Open Forums.
• When someone is in church through the day it is amazing how many people come in, to talk, in need of help, or just to admire. Could we have a system of having a person in church to meet people and represent us?
• Hold more events to reach out to the wider community, similar to those in the 'renewal week' which received such a good response. We already have concerts and flower festivals etc.  Perhaps something once a month, focused on our Lymington community.
• Another midweek event could be focused on families e.g. 'Messy Church'. Perhaps weekly in term time.
  How about running a link to Monmouth Court or streaming services on the internet? These could then be tied into parish activities.
• We don't need to duplicate what is being done in other churches, so perhaps join in with them.
• We are very fortunate with our leadership here in the parish and aware of the time and effort that goes into trying to get it right. We are so lucky – a vote of thanks to Peter and Sarah, the Church Wardens and PCC.
• Reiterate that point. Have been in many parishes all over the country and nothing as good as this one, particularly working hard to respond to parishioners. Thank you.
• A newcomers event with local organisations, to include supper.

24 January 2012 (7.30pm)

Worship

• Q – Could First@nine be on a Sunday afternoon or on a week day?
• First@nine started on a Tuesday evening and then grew into into its present first Sunday in the month slot. It draws people from many churches and congregations. A different slot would free up many of these people to join their own communities
• We are looking at different aspects of worship to incorporate the best
• There was an outburst of indignation at the cessation of Sunday morning Anglican worship at All Saints. This led to a spontaneous meeting of around 20 people. As a result a letter was written to the Vicar

This group by-passed the established structure of this Parish, namely the All Saints Leadership Team (ASLT) and most of the ASLT were not invited or involved in this impromptu meeting

• Is it distance that measn people don't want to go to St Thomas'? Why is this antagonism?
• Q – How will weddings be organised?
• Peter Salisbury or Andy Smith will take weddings supported by the Parish
• We have to be very open. People have given their hearts to All Saints. Could we have two services on a Sunday, say First@Nine and 4th Sunday

PCC Compromise

• Q - The wording of the PCC compromise seems angry, who wrote it?
• Peter Salisbury wrote an initial draft, which then went to T5 and the Churchwardens who made several changes. The PCC then made further changes at its meeting on 19 January. So we all wrote it?
• It is impossible to make change without creating some upset and disappointment
• Go back to the problem. We are one Parish with one incumbent, very few Readers and retired clergy. The Vicar can't be everywhere on a Sunday morning
• We are sharing the offer of some Sunday morning Anglican worship at All Saints
• You can't run a church on one service per month
• Q - How would the WSC be organised?
• We don't know and are waiting for responses. It should be part of what is happening in the rest of the Parish. Perhaps there should be a sign-up sheet against the roles than need to be fulfilled
• With one service per month we have to prove ourselves at All Saints. Running it will be a serious commitment and we are short of volunteers
• Q – When are the PCC Minutes made public? So far the latest available are those from the November 2011 meeting
• The Minutes have to be approved by the PCC and signed by the Chairman before they can be made public. This is done at the next subsequent PCC meeting. The January minutes will be approved at the Extra PCC meeting on 9 February

General

• Q – Will the All Saints gardening team still carry on? One service per month takes the heart out of it
• If there are no volunteers the Parish will have to pay for this to be done
• Perhaps we could set up specific gardening parties
• Q - Can we still run the lunch club at All Saints?
• We can still have this, but currently the funds are solely raised at All Saints. This needs to be Parish-wide
• In the past we have had trouble filling vacancies on the PCC and the ASLT
• All are very welcome at St Thomas'
• Q – Can we do anything in the evening at All Saints?
• Many people have been doing many jobs in the Parish on a voluntary basis and several of them are now giving up due to advancing years or needing more time. It is difficult to fill these roles, so we need help from the whole Parish working together
• Q - Are there funds to do the minor repairs at All Saints?
  • The Parish budget includes some amounts for repairs, maintenance and running costs at All Saints and we will try within the Parish budget to do these things
• We have a Parish of people who will care for the whole Parish, both St Thomas' and All Saints
• If we have two services each Sunday [at St Thomas'] that unite the Parish we will create the people power to run the whole Parish.

25 January 2012

First@Nine

• Can we explore how to take F@9 forward?
• F@9 could possibly become Lunch with the Bible or Tea with the Bible
• It could be at all sorts of times, but personally I think that its should first thing in the morning
• F@9 started on Tuesday evenings post the Alpha course. Since then it has grown into its current slot at All Saints. Family Time (FT) started at about the same time with a similar format. Both have a theme. FT has families and young people, which is not the norm at F@9. Both start with food. There is an opportunity here to develop FT and F@9 together
• F@9 has outside speakers as its core. We would want to see how a combined service would work out before committing to it
• Both come down to spiritual development and building a relationship with God. We need to reach out to people who find God a tricky concept
• This provides us with an opportunity to develop a contemporary-style of worship
• F@9 is ecumenical; has external, challenging speakers, shakes you up. We need to save all of this
  How can we make ecumenical more explicit? By growing F@9 and FT together
• There are strong links in CTLP
• F@9 didn't start out as ecumenical, but as an All Saints service
• We are not sure about serving food at St Thomas for F@9.
• FT is also not sure about serving food in St Thomas' Church, but this needs to be worked on
• It would be great to have F@9 at a different time so that it doesn't clash with other Sunday worship.
• I want to go more often to F@9 but I am committed to FT
• Both FT and F@9 have a great sense of community, we need to keep this. Both have skills that we need to bring together
• Please find a compromise to keep F@9-style worship – food and outside speaker

Worship

• I can't see how All Saints can function on one service per month.
• It is sad that regular services at All Saints are ceasing
• Go back to the problem:
• There is, or will be soon, a lack of clergy to take and lead the current range of services.
• The Vicar can't be in three places at once on a Sunday. If he is stretched too thin he can't provide the spiritual guidance which we all need from him.
• We need to be all together. People have a lot to offer, but we have to all together to achieve this
• The PCC has discussed the problem and the possible solutions very extensively and so far no one has come up with a better solution than that proposed by T5
• I would like to see the 8 o'clock Communion continue
• The PCC hasn't made a final decision on this. Things were going a bit, so they have deferred decisions to the meeting on 9 February. T5 made a stong recommendation to keep the 8 o'clock communion, so its 90% sure it will be kept
• We talk a lot about young people, but what about our ministry and comfort to the not so young. Perhaps this might include Matins every 5th Sunday
• With services in two places at the same time some people go to both alternatley and have split loyalties. They would prefer to be together and are looking forward to being together. It's not All Saints and St Thomas people, it's all of us together
• Is God calling us to be somewhere else with our worship and not just keeping on the status quo?
• Let's be together, we can achieve so much more. Look for the opportunities, and listen to God. Step out

General

• Two years ago we had an All Saints Vision day, which created a new All Saints Leadership Team (ASLT)
• The notice of cessation of services at All Saints seemed very quick
• We stated this two years ago with the Vision Day at All Saints and then at the July 2011 PCC meeting.
• The PCC debated the problem at its meetings in July and September 2011
• At its September meeting the PCC set up the T5 group to investigate and come up with proposals
• The October 2011 letter to the Parish (which was read out to all congregations) stated that “we decided unanimously that we must take action to simplify radically our activities in the parish. The benefit of this radical simplification will be a better focus of our time and energy, so that we can concentrate more on our day to day Christian lives, and not all be worn out simply keeping the machinery of church services... As a team we feel at this stage that a radical simplification will result in no more than two or at most three services on a normal Sunday. Clearly changes of this magnitude will affect ALL our services; it is not that we shall choose four services to stop and two to continue, rather that ALL will stop in their current form and two, or possibly three, new services will replace them. We cannot carry on as we are, and simplifying what we do will have many benefits.”
• We then held a congregation meeting at All Saints where the letter and T5 recommendations were reiterated and people could ask questions
• The PCC at its November meeting approved the T5 report and went a bit further, but we still have a long way to go.
• I didn't see the AS Vision Day as a precursor. Most people don't read notes and minutes, which is why it came as shock when it was announced at the AS meeting in October
• We are not serving our Baptism families very well, where are they in our congregations?
• We should look at what we can do rather than what is not possible

Looking Ahead

• These Open Forums have shown that All Saints and St Thomas congregations have grown further apart over the years.
• We need to be much more ambitious with All Saints. It is a different facility to St Thomas. How can it be best utilised?
• Look at what might happen at All Saints. It's a big venue for Lymington, but we can't see at present how best to use it. For example we could have a big Sunday evening service for teenagers with a Christian Rock Band
• Things that happen every other Sunday at All Saints will happen every Sunday at St Thomas
• We need to reach out to families on the margins. We can do this best with greater resources in one place
• Two separate communities makes pooling resources much harder
• We will need a Parish team to keep the All Saints building and grounds going
• The danger of getting bigger is in becoming impersonal. Size is important
• We are pretending to be bigger than we really are. Milford's main Sunday service is as big as our combined service will be
• An antidote to size is is House Groups. These are small communities within a larger community where you see your fellow House Group members in the larger group on Sundays
• House groups are a great opportunity for praying together and learning. People learn best in small groups when it's interactive. They are also a way for people to feel that they belong
• House groups need to be connected as currently hey are all on different agendas
• New people have come into All Saints from the surrounding area over the years. They will greatly enhance and enliven the services at St Thomas'
• Lymington Baptist Church Front Line (as seen at the CTLP service on 22 January) is a brilliant way of finding out what people in our community do and praying for them
• What about a lunch club once a month on a Sunday?
• The Vistas Café will also coincide with Friday Fellowship. It would be great if we could combine them
• Milford-on-Sea had a Big Breakfast last Saturday (21 January) at which three people shared their testimonies and a fourth voluntarily added theirs
• The Open Forums have encouraged a wide range of thought and enabled people to have their say. Hopefully they have also enabled people to hear and understand other viewpoints
• Peter Salisbury reported that Bishop Jonathan (Bishop of Southampton) attended the Open Forum on the previous evening at All Saints (24 January). After the event he remarked that he travels all over the Diocese visiting parishes, many of whom are facing difficult decisions, but not addressing them. He was very heartened to see that Lymington is facing up to the difficult decisions that need to be taken

Thanks to Dr James Soper

We have all been greatly impressed with Dr James Soper's facilitation of all these Open Forums. Grateful and many thanks were expressed to James.